Talk:Mirror universe/archive
=Mirror universe= Creation of mirror universe I think the mirror universe was created by Captain Kirk. Although McCoy might be more responsible then Kirk is. In the Episode "City on the Edge of Forever" our history was pushed aside and one in which presumably the Nazis ruled was created. Anyways, I think that "Mirror, Mirror" might mark Kirk's second entry into the mirror universe, the first being when they were at the Guardian of Forever. The theory is simply that the mirror universe is the inevitable outcome of the effect of saving Edith in "City". Remember Scotty did say, "Sulu is a security chief like the old Gestapo." Just an interesting thought. -- TOSrules 10:42, 26 Aug 2004 (CEST) :A nice theory. Here's another one: according to the many-worlds interpretation of quantum theory (which is used in Star Trek universe as well, see ), when a sub-atomic particle can do two things, two universes split off in which both options occur. The way I understand it, the mirror universe is one of the countless upon countless possible quantum realities. I like your theory better, but I think this more likely, especially since "Parallels". -- Redge | ''Talk'' 16:25, 26 Aug 2004 (CEST) I've entertained that idea, but then you'd have a 1 in a billion billion chance of hitting a universe so exactly opposite. And that is a VERY conservative estimate. This way, it sets reason for them to hit that universe. Of course proving either theory to be correct would be impossible. Although my theory would be easier to prove because you'd be more likely to find something hard because you know the universe, when the parallel theory could be any ship we don't see, and even the idea that they never opened up into that universe.--TOSrules 23:15, 26 Aug 2004 (CEST) :Actually, the chances of hitting such a universe aren't so small as you'd think. The chances of hitting one specific universe are so astronomically small we probably couldn't even conceive it, but the chances of hitting a universe with characteristics opposite to the universe as we know it, aren't that small, as you'd not only have countless universes like ours, but also countless universes like theirs. Besides, the mirror universe isn't so different from ours as the producers would like us to believe. They have exactly the same physics, people in it look exactly like their counterparts, etc. The only thing different is politics and morals. -- Redge | ''Talk'' 16:31, 27 Aug 2004 (CEST) ::I just assumed that although there are millions of universes, the mirror universe shared some kind of link to ours. That's why there were so many encounters. 2 of 4 :::I think First Contact in is responsible. My source is, of course, Shatner's and Reeves-Stevens' Star Trek: The Mirror Universe Trilogy saga, where Spock extensively explains (or rather, implies, as he never mentions the Enterprise-E's involvement) that Humans and Vulcans became a more militaristic and barbarian Empire, ever since First Contact occured. Everything else was pretty much the same. And I agree. I mean, Cochrane in the original universe, "our universe", evolved from the movie version into the TOS episode, due to his extensive lifespan, and acquired the wisdom every Starfleet officer in FC tell him he supposedly had. Whereas, I am led to believe that Cochrane from the FC and onward, NEVER really became the great man he was by the 23rd century. I mean, with the knowledge he had of the history, of the future, his future, it is understandable that he make a different choice for the future. And his choice to be more technologically advanced than they would originally be, to protect themselves from the Borg effect, led to a more dangerous, and retrospectively worse path. But the intention was good. You may ask how Cochrane could still know the future after FC, given that the Enterprise crew could've erased his memory with them somehow.. In Preserver, it explains with a great detail Cochrane's aftermath on FC, and how he came to his decision to tell the Vulcans of the Borg and the future that lie ahead.. :::I am really more willing to take that suggestion over the ludicrous Enterprise explanation. Even if that means that to reject official continuity for non-canon, non-official novel continuity (which I already did). It just excited me more and FEELS more right with everything we knew prior to Enterprise. :::What do you think? User:Captain James T. Kirk ::::I think most of the explanations of the mirror universe from the Shatner novels are pure bunk. They are non-canon and don't really give much respect to the qualities of the mirror universe as seen in the televised episodes. I'm glad that non-canon information isnt included in MA articles like this one, because it is really contradictory. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 14:41, 2 Aug 2005 (UTC) :::Not to be rude, but how are they contradictory? I think they tie very well - Spock helps mirror Kirk rise into Emperor Tiberius I, then forces him out, creating a peacefull galaxtic society, that as Major mirror Kira explained, was completely unprepared for the attack made by the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance, which as the novels explain, was formed by Tiberius! It'd reasonable, that instead of the Khitomer Conference that happened in Star Trek VI, the alliance happened at that time (mirroring -:)- yet again their differences as universes, one universe had the Federation coming in peace with the Klingons, whereas in the other the Klingons with the Cardassians went on to destroy the Terran Empire - and Kirk is essential element in both events), and some time after, Tiberius dissapeared for 78 years (like Kirk) when he was in hibernation sleep, only to reappear in the 24th century. And the divergence of the mirror universe is very well explained - I see First Contact since I read these novels with a wholly new light. I refuse to accept Enterprise's continuity, because that one makes the least sense to me, completely disrespects what came before and is contradictory. Add to that, the inclusion of the Preservers who want at one point to destroy one of the universe by overlaping it with a new matrix, so that individuality can be preserved. I think Reeves-Stevens' have to do much with the continuity, and it really is excellent. Its just sad that isn't canon. It would've rocked if Enterprise somehow accepted the backstory given in the Shatner novels and made a storyline out of that material. That alone would be enough to accept it as a Star Trek feature, and not as a bad imitation of what gone before (which it is). User:Captain James T. KirkUser talk:Captain James T. Kirktalk :::::Mirror Spock gives Kirk the Nazi salute (though originally borrowed by Hitler from that of the Roman Empire's legionaires) when he beams aboard ISS Enterprise from the "good" version of Halka. This aspect lends credibility to Enterprise's presentation of its mirror-world's totalitarian state as "centuries" (namely two) old. However, here is the catch: it's not realistic. If Nazi Germany had taken over the world, the portrayal of ISS Enterprise (neverminding that it would have to be a German equivalent, considering the extensive Germanization the Nazis imposed, or definitely would've imposed, on subject peoples) is far too.....'sane.' The notion of an Axis(and especially Nazi)-oriented humanity going into space is, at least to this author, by far the most horrifying concept Star Trek has ever penned. As such, I'm of mind to feel that a mirror universe equivalent to all Human history is more likely. --ChrisK 13:22, 7 April 2006 (UTC) ::::::This seems to suggest a very interesting theory. In a mirror universe everything is reversed. Does that mean that the Allies would be the 'evil' side in a mirror World War II? If you think of everything in history as backwards, then that might make Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union peaceful democracies, both destroyed by a tyrannical Western force. The Allies then become the Empire sometime during the late 20th Century.– No Branching... I personally don't invest much interest into the branching concept, that the mirror universe was created by the possible branches from a single event. I prefer to think that the mirror universe mirrors all Human history, rather than just a span of a few hundred years. So, any moment in Human history has its mirror universe equivalent. -- :This might be cleared up once and for all on Enterprise in a few weeks' time. Alex Peckover 03:42, 9 Apr 2005 (EDT) In a Mirror, Darkly I noticed an interesting conversation in Part 2 of this episode, which may or may not be relevant to this article. I've got at least a prototype mention of it that could be used in this article, but I'm not sure where to put it. Anybody got an opinion? What I would insert: :According to the mirror Phlox in , the literature of the Earth of the mirror universe is much more warlike than our universe, with the apparent exception of Shakespeare's works. --umrguy42 00:46, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC) :it's not unknown for repressive regimes to rewrite such works though. usually it's either rewritten, or banned outright. usually if it can't be rewritten to toe the party line, it gets banned. the same is for history. it's possible that the split was with cochrane, and the powers that be rewrote history to imply the regime was much older. -mithril ::It is possible, but it is speculation. Phlox's statement is not. We can speculate the validity in background, possibly, but we can't change what he said. --OuroborosCobra 21:02, 21 June 2006 (UTC) In a Mirror, Darkly, Part II Phlox makes a comparison between Human literature in the mirror universe and that which is recorded in the Defiant's memory banks. Apparently, only Shakespeare was as violent as his mirror equivalent. Some of this dialogue could be included here. Stagnant technology in the Terran Empire :Note: This discussion started here. Hi, while I don't like to criticize, was it ever mentioned anywhere that the Terran Empire had become techonologically stagnant? I was just wondering, as your latest addition to the mirror universe article seems to be mainly speculative. --umrguy42 04:56, 1 May 2005 (UTC) : In the 22nd century, the ♁-Empire gets a Constitution-class ship. A hundred and twelve years later, the ♁-Empire still uses Constitution-class ships. If Daniels would give our Archer a Constitution-class ship, Kirk would command a Sovereign-class ship and Picard would pilot a ship in the same class as ' USS '' Enterprise '' (NCC-1701-J). — ¡Take that Borg and Dominion! ' Perhaps the Vulcans refusing to share technology is good because it forces us to innovate. The ♁-Empire went so far so fast using technology plundered from the Vulcans. Empress Hoshi Sato Ⅰ takes over control of the ♁-Empire and crushes a rebellion using future technology from another universe. The ♁-Empire seems dependent on assimilating technology from elsewhere. — — Ŭalabio 05:47, 1 May 2005 (UTC) ::And the fact that they once again steal ''another Defiant in the 24th century would seem to also support your theory. However, we still don't know what happened to the Constitution-class USS Defiant NCC-1764. For all we know, Empress Hoshi might have kept the ship all for herself in order to maintain her control of the Empire and position of complete power. Thus forcing the Empire to continue their natural progession of starship lineage over the years until other factions in the Empire had their own Constitution-class starships. The Defiant could eventually have been destroyed as well due to random variables. Violent ion storms, supernova, mass rebellion from other aliens and civil war within the Empire at the turn of the 23rd Century when large fleets of ships (slightly less advanced than the Defiant, but still effective in mass numbers) turn on her with an unimaginable obliterating assault. At which point, any debris of the Defiant left behind with future technology, would take decades if not half a century to decode, assimilate, and reproduce. So in conclusion, I think we should leave out any speculation about stagnation. --AC84 05:40, 25 September 2006 (PST) Speculation There seems to be a lot of speculation and I'm not sure if it belongs in the article as an actual part of the main content, including the following: :Because of the intermittent nature of contact with the Mirror Universe, very little information on its history and timeline is known. It has yet to be determined if this is some kind of alternate timeline that could possibly have diverged from our own in some manner, or if the two universes share a deeper connection that makes them move in opposite to each other while still maintaining a persistent series of crossovers and transferences. :''Whether or not the two universes are divergent, they seem tied and inverted. Most individuals have analogues, but social status and whether people are good or evil by our ethics are mostly but not perfectly reversed. The effect is like taking a picture of our universe and taking the negative, flipping it horizontally, and partially melting it so that it becomes extremely distorted. Although very different from our universe, most new people born in one universe have new analogues born in the other universe, showing that some tie must exist between the universes. Also, the individuals need to be identified as their own selves and not so-and-so's counterpart all the time. It has to be written from the MU perspective, and not necessarily our perspective of it. --Gvsualan 14:29, 5 May 2005 (UTC) First Contact Terrans and other species are ''all more aggressive and bloodthirsty in the mirror universe than in our own (hard as that is to believe). It's not clear that the "First Contact" event wasn't a prelude to invasion. At least T'Pol, in the ENT mirror universe episodes, shows the same aggressive, violent behavior as the humans. It's unclear whether this is innate or due to being a subject species. Either way, I don't think it's a good idea to assert that Cochrane's firing was necessarily a misguided mistake. ::Interesting, but untill i See, or hear other wise, I will belive that perhaps T'pol's addtitude simply comes from being a slave all theose years. -- User:Terran Officer 06:17, September 19, 2005 Possible Featured Article? I think that, with a few more pictures and maybe a bit more comprehensive a breakdown - looking at the Terran Empire and Klingon/Cardassian Alliance in subsections, this could be a featured article. It has all of the information it needs, just needs to be prettied up a bit. --Werideatdusk 02:29, 7 Aug 2005 (UTC) Reverted I reverted a change which added a note to the apocrypha paragraph about the mirror universe being derived from episode writers' earlier novels co-written with Shatner -- the ENT version of the mirror universe seemed to stretch back further than 2063 at First Contact -- Archer said the Terran Empire had been around for "hundreds of years" -- this indicates the "point of divergence" would have to be hundreds of years before First Contact -- way before 2063. Furthermore, I consider this to be an indication that the mirror universe continues to "mirror" our own without any "point of divergence" possible -- it simply is an opposed duplicate to events here, caused by a strange probability -- its not something created like an alternate timeline -- it is a true parallel universe -- one that parallels without ever having been identical to our own. However both the "parallel" theory and the "divergent" theory are speculation -- but the parallel version has the advantage of being based on the notes and intentions of the TOS and DS9 writers (as well as the ENT references, which seem to agree). -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 05:45, 7 Aug 2005 (UTC) :Thanks for catching that. I had made the change based on a discussion I had with a friend, and just now remembered Mirror Phlox's comments about the classic literature being slightly different in the two universes. Very shrewd. --Werideatdusk 05:58, 7 Aug 2005 (UTC) :: This comment seems based on Picard's research in Dark Mirror comparing literary authors, including Shakespeare. The agony booth is described in a way very similar to its description in Diane Duane's novel as well, in which mirror-Troi considers the latest model to be progress. Also, in both works someone from the MU draws a starship from the Federation into the MU. The Empire's inclusion device in Dark Mirror becomes the Tholian's tri-cobalt warhead in IaMD. Star Trek: Voyager - Elite Force I've recently finished playing ST:VOY Elite Force and i dont recall anything about the mirror universe in the game... Slipzen 21:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC) :The starship you go through in the game is from the mirror universe, as is evident from the familiar stabbed-Earth symbol decorating the doors and walls of the corridors. It's in the level called "Disorder" and its subsequent level. You gotta sneak past Starfleet officers dressed in 23rd century Mirror Universe uniforms. You gotta remember that level. :) --From Andoria with Love 22:12, 3 April 2006 (UTC) Ah, ok. I was probably to involved in playing to notice :D Slipzen 22:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC) Vulcan intentions verified? "However once the Vulcans landed and made their peaceful introduction...", given on the page. But do we actually know that? Archer called it a Vulcan invasion force...what if he was actually telling the truth, rather than the gruesome "misunderstanding" of the humans of Vulcan intentions? Say, the Vulcans land to deal with the possible threat of humanity the moment Cochrane does his warp flight, due to Surak having been a warlord that ended the Vulcans' self-destructive warfare by force of arms and cold-blooded logic, rather than "the peaceful philosophy of logic." Did the negative T'Pol make any reference at all to the situation, and claim them benign?...and even if she did, given what she did to Tucker with the mind meld, as well as her comparative viciousness to the positive T'Pol, could she even be trusted? This article might be making assumptions about the Vulcans, even while being blatant on the humans' tendancies in it. The whole universe might be negative...Worf and Kira seemed to be so. --ChrisK 09:11, 19 July 2006 (UTC) Reverted "correction" Since Jonathan Archer or any of the crew members of the [[Enterprise (NX-01)|NX-01 Enterprise]] never visited the mirror universe (not that we know of, anyway), I have reverted that last edit by Adamwankenobi. --From Andoria with Love 23:50, 19 August 2006 (UTC) :See . Adamwankenobi 00:00, 20 August 2006 (UTC) I did see that, when it first aired in fact. And having seen it many times since then, I can tell you for certain that both of the episodes take place entirely in the mirror universe, and the regular universe characters never appear (except for Archer as a figment of Mirror Archer's imagination). Please check your facts before editing. --From Andoria with Love 00:02, 20 August 2006 (UTC) Where's the Dominion? There is a wormhole in the mirror universe, no? Where's the contact with the Dominion? Are they ever mentioned in any of the mirror episodes or do they not exist? PrognosisNegative 18:00, 18 September 2006 (UTC) :I don't remember the mirror universe making use of the wormhole, with the obvious exception of Odo existing in our side of the galaxy. In addition, why would the Dominion have to exist at all? The Federation sure doesn't. --OuroborosCobra talk 18:34, 18 September 2006 (UTC) ::I doubt we can determine if the Dominion exists in the mirror universe or not based on on-screen references. Even Odo (mirror) is only presumed to be from the Delta Quadrant, as following the same path into the Alpha Quadrant as his counterpart. Apparently, the wormhole hasn't been discovered as late as 2375. - Intricated talk page 20:48, 18 September 2006 (UTC) :::Actually, Odo is from the Gamma Quadrant. --Willie 08:48, 19 September 2006 (UTC) ::::He was from the Gamma Quadrant in the Standard Universe (SU) before they ever found the wormhole, as well. As a complete aside, they should make the Alliance split, to cause a Klingon-Cardassian War counterpart, and eventually have the rebels want revenge against the former Alliance, thereby reinstituting a ruthless anti-Federation, only this time without the specific brand of racism exhibited by Archer and company: a Confederacy of Planets (Federal vs. Confederate, heh), founded by the "the original master/pure races" (hello, Colonel Greene and Neo-Nazi science...) of the Humans, Vulcans, Andorians, etc., if you will. --ChrisK 09:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC) =Mirror universe cultures= Necessary? How necessary is this article? Clearly an Orion is an Orion, can't this page somehow be merged with the regular Orion page? The Tholians and mirror Tholians are on the same page, and it's not as if we have or need mirror Romulan, Human, Cardassian, Klingon or Bajoran pages, so why do we need this? --Gvsualan 04:38, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC) Orion Syndicate has it occured to anyone that the orion syndicate is a powerful criminal organization, at least as far as they were described in deep space nine, and that maybe they weren't conscripted or conqured, just fellow pirates and criminals -- User:CaptianJamesRKirk 23:14, 5 May 2005 (UTC) In the mirror universe, everything is backwards. So, since Orions are bloodthirsty pirates in "our" universe, they may be peacable, lawful people in the mirror universe? Then they would in fact have been conscripted. Of course, even if they are fellow pirates, I kind of doubt the Terran Empire would be all that into making alliances with anybody. Given mirror Archer's comments that, essentially, alliances Do Not Work, Ever. Either way, its hard to tell what the mirror-Orions are like, given that the mirror-universe rules aren't always "things are the opposite of how they should be". Poor Rom's head nearly exploded with confusion when he went there. --Malimar 03:52, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC) from vfd Various Mirror universe species ;Tellarite (mirror), Orion (mirror), Denobulan (mirror), Vulcan (mirror) : I'm not convinced that these are necessary. Clearly an Orion is an Orion, so can't the Orion (mirror) page somehow be merged with the regular Orion page -- just like the Vor'cha class (mirror) has been included in the and NX class (mirror) has been included in ? The Tholian and Tholian (mirror) are on the same page, and it would completely destroy that page if we were to remove them into two separate articles. And it's not as if we have or need pages on Romulan (mirror), Human (mirror), Cardassian (mirror), Klingon (mirror) or Bajoran (mirror) pages, so why do we need pages for species that played far less important role in any of the mirror universe episodes? --Gvsualan 05:09, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC) / --Gvsualan 12:01, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC) *'Delete'- This should be moved to something like "Alternate timeline/universe" sections under characters pages. The wording in those articles isn't to good either, kind like from our perspective, not Treks. -AJHalliwell 05:25, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC) *'Keep'. I disagree with the above, I think the articles are needed. -- Lincolnian 10:11, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC) **Please offer an explaination for both. --Gvsualan 10:12, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC) *'Keep' Just the other day I was looking for a mirror Bajoran page and was dissapointed that one didn't exist.Jaz 20:09, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC) * Delete, certainly not enough to substantiate separate articles on them. — THOR 20:12, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC) *'Keep', they are different, simple as that, we need somewhere to address their respected histories. Tyrant 21:01, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)Tyrant *'Keep'. Like Jaz I already wanted articles on the mirror universe races. I'm glad some have been created. -- Krevaner 22:27, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC) *'Keep'. --Brad Rousse 02:18, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC) * Delete. Have them redirect to their normal pages, and create a Mirror Universe section under "Alternate timelines". Ottens 07:55, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC) *'Keep!!!'. This is a very important section. This is a valid article. There is no reason to delete it. We want to expand our database and this is a good expansion. The miror universe is a large part of Star Trek and we need data on it. User:Tobyk777 8:27 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) *'Delete'. This info can be kept at the parent pages. Jaf 21:16, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)Jaf * Keep. A lot of information on MA is duplicated, and that's fine. Keep the mirror pages, but also allow key data from the mirror pages to appear on the 'normal' pages. --Short Circuit 21:21, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) * Delete, I thought about this for a while and I think the minor species should be reduced to one page Mirror Universe cultures, although there might be a case for keeping a few of the Mirror universe species. Some of the speices just have to little info for one page. --TOSrules 21:46, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) *'Keep'. As Tyrant has pointed out. They are so different we need somewhere to address their respective histories. -- Datalore 17:35, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC) *'Delete'. I'm in favour of putting these articles under a "Mirror Universe" subsection in the regular species pages. Randee15 21:41, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC) Delete the articles *Gvsualan (submitted) *AJHalliwell *THOR *Ottens *Jaf *TOSrules *Randee15 Keep the articles *Lincolnian *Jaz *Tyrant *Krevaner *Brad Rousse *Short Circuit *Tobyk777 *Datalore :6 to 7 currently -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 14:34, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC) ::It seems that keeping these articles is ahead, but only by one vote. Since we are pretty evenly divided, I think this might be too wide an issue to consider this a consensus. I'd like to propose a compromise of: * keeping species articles if more than 3 or so members of that species were seen in the mirror universe ** deleting or redirecting species with only one or two individuals shown, back to the parent species article. (Would this warrant categorizing these as Category:Mirror universe, since they appeared in the mirror universe?) * deleting or redirecting "starship class" articles back to the parent, unless the mirror version of the parent starship class was shown to be a vastly different size or confguration. (for example, the had not much more than a different paint job, so there's no need to differentiate "NX class" from "NX class (mirror)", IMO -- but Worf's Klingon flagship was modified from its other appearance and appeared to be intended to be at a different scale, so it may deserve a separate class article from the regular universe Klingon battleship-class. ;Proposal votes and comments : Add here * I would merely like to add that it's rather odd we have a pages for the Orions and the Denobulans in the Mirror Universe, but that we don't have a specific Human (mirror) page. Reason? Because information regarding is on the Mirror universe and Terran Empire pages. Information concerning the other mirror universe species should be both on the Mirror universe page, as well as on the individual species pages. Ottens 17:10, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC) * Tellarite (mirror), Orion (mirror), Denobulan (mirror) Vs the Mirror Universe cultures page I just created. Which is a better idea? With this idea we could end up with an impressive collection of real minor Worlds from the Mirror Universe. --TOSrules 21:06, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC) * I would also like to point out that I have made a fairly competant justification for deleting these articles. However, I would also like to point out that the most competant rebuttal thus far is...well, to be honest, there hasn't been any rebuttals, just "votes". --Gvsualan 07:16, 28 Jun 2005 (UTC) * I'd agree. The articles should be merged into a composite page, like the Mirror universe cultures page TOSrules suggests. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk **the pages have been merged as Mirror universe cultures. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 15:06, 1 Jul 2005 (UTC) formatting :stealing the Defiant, and destroying several of their '' :''stealing the Defiant, and destroying several of their '' :''stealing the ''Defiant, and destroying several of their '' :Clearly leaving the '' inside of another set of '' will not result in the desired italics, since the whole section is already in italics--172.165.229.230 01:18, 24 June 2006 (UTC) ::Unless the result of "Defiant" not being italics is what we want, and fits with the formatting standards used on Memory Alpha. --OuroborosCobra 01:20, 24 June 2006 (UTC) :::As Cobra stated, this is what we want. Defiant is the name of a space vessel, which, in plain text, is italicized. However, if the text surrounding it is already italicized, then the ship's name is not italicized. --From Andoria with Love 03:11, 24 June 2006 (UTC) i want to know about the xindi and borg. the xindi and the borg where never mentioned in the miror universe. any one have any theroies about them? how would they be different? (maybe a kinder less frightening borg? lol!) -- :This isn't really the place for this. This isn't a discussion board. See What Memory Alpha is not. Everything in this conversation would be completely speculative. Havin said that, the Borg were stupid and weak in this universe, see , so maybe they would be the intelligent bad-asses (that they were supposed to be) in the mirror universe? --Bp 13:17, 20 August 2006 (UTC) ::Ignore most of Bp's rant, except the part of this not being the place for a dicussion on this. The rest of what he said was the result of aa dillusional mind. --OuroborosCobra talk 23:40, 20 August 2006 (UTC) : maybe the lack of borg is why this universe is so different to begin with. i think the temporal cold war created a universe in which there are no borg, and as a result picard never traveled back in time. hence the humans didn't know that the vulcans wheren't a threat, and responded as such, the empire was then created to deal with the vulcan "threat" as for the other differences before that, well that's the butterfly effect, after all the borg where around since before 1300. as for the xindi, i think they are part of the empire (after all they did attack earth) either that or the terrans don't even know about them, since without a federation, the sphere builders had no need to manipulate the xindi, so they might still be divided with no common government. ::Nice bit of speculation, although the one flaw is that the Empire was founded "centuries" prior to 2155 (suggesting a formation year of at least 1955 or before). --From Andoria with Love 17:49, 21 August 2006 (UTC) :butterfly effect, the borg have been around since before 1300, and temporal incursions can have unexpected effects (see VOY year of hell). either that or the terran empire is another result of a timeline where the temporal cold war plays out differently. Xindi Xindi ships were seen in the opening credits of "In a Mirror, Darkly". They should warrant inclusion in this list, since the rest of the credits background material has received equal focus. --Sasoriza 01:17, 5 November 2006 (UTC) :Were they seen? I'd like to see a screen cap of that before we included it. --OuroborosCobra talk 01:30, 5 November 2006 (UTC) ::Several Xindi ships were seen, take a look at these screenshots from the opening credits of the mirror universe episodes, courtesy of trekcore: :: 138&pos 67}}, 138&pos 68}}, 138&pos 69}} and 138&pos 70}}. --Jörg 10:54, 5 November 2006 (UTC) Forum:Borg in dark mirror universe are there any references in the dark mirror universe to the borg. do they even exist there. :No. -- Sulfur 05:43, 14 October 2007 (UTC) ::in the Borg assisted Captain Janeway in the mirror universe :That wasn't the mirror universe. -- Sulfur 16:17, 3 December 2007 (UTC) Forum:The Borg in the Mirror Universe? Do we ever see the Borg from the Mirror universe? Since all the "good" factions of "our" universe are evil in theirs and vice-versa, what do you suppose the Borg are like there? Your answer can be extrapolative hypotheses. I'll give mine after I read your responses. :) -- 18:29, 23 March 2008 (UTC) :I could have sworn we answered this question already in another forum or talk page, but here it goes: we never see the Borg in the mirror universe, nor was there any references made to Borg in the mirror universe. Before you give us your hypothesis, however, keep in mind that these forums are not here to post speculation or theories. It's not that we don't care, it's just that forums and talk pages are not meant for such things. sorry. :/ --From Andoria with Love 18:52, 23 March 2008 (UTC) :: Yeah, Forum:Borg in dark mirror universe., neither of which are forums we need to keep because it is nothing but "fan-boy chit-chat" versus "Appropriate questions may concern the canonicity of certain facts, or requests for clarification concerning specific dialogue or actions, for example." --Alan 18:55, 23 March 2008 (UTC) :::True it has nothing to do with this website, but I do believe there are a couple of books involving the mirror Borg.--UESPA 19:11, 23 March 2008 (UTC) :: Perhaps this question should be directed here then. --Alan Forum:Mirror Universe- Not so advanced? I'm not registered, but I am a fan of Star Trek, particularly Enterprise and Voyager. Now, moving on- Your article on the mirror universe questions whether the TOS Defiant in Enterprise's 'In a Mirror Darkly, Part II' played an impact, as the article said the Terran Empire didn't look much more advanced then the 'normal' Starfleet ships. I'd beg to differ here- I never saw a phase cannon used in the mirror universe. As the NX-09 attacked with a pulsed plasma cannon and no torpedoes, I think we can assume they didn't have phase cannons and photonic torpedoes? Just a little ramble from me. What do you think? -- 21:49, 7 September 2007 (UTC) : i tink u shud regista 01:50, 8 September 2007 (UTC) ::If this were wikipedia, i'd say, "don't BITE." Naufana : talk 04:25, 11 September 2007 (UTC) Forum:Terran empire tech.. You guys have proablay seen in a mirror darkly part one and two,it ends when archer is killed and sato becomes empress.the tos style defiant however,is present,and 100 or so years yater the terran empire is still using tos ships.i think that when she said she will beocme a empress that the nx class ships invaded and killed the crew,and severly damaged the ship,so they had to rebulid it from scarth,or the ship was destoryed in a battle...the question is why is the empire is using tos style ships when they had one at 2157...were they that efficent..?(i'm using the genaral story line,not real world connections..) --Sect.oficer danuis 00:21, 4 December 2007 (UTC) :This is already being discussed at Talk:Mirror universe history. Also, please spell check and proofread your posts and at least TRY to be legible. As it stands, given your typing style and the fact that he was involved in another of your threads, I am wondering if you are a ban evade account for User:Commander data. --OuroborosCobra talk 01:04, 4 December 2007 (UTC) i assure yu a am not commander data.the reason for the bad spelling,i'm sorry for,is because of my fast typing.Sect.oficer danuis 18:03, 30 December 2007 (UTC)-- ::Spellcheck. That's what Cobra talked about. It saves fast and bad typers from needing to make excuses. Now, having said that about your typing, let me ask whether speed is also your excuse for not reading no good neither? Fast typing grammar also excuse is for the making the not responsible being too neither? Juast asking sorry fir ot too me am. 22:51, 30 December 2007 (UTC)